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Surfski Layup vs Performance (Read 8463 times)
10/24/15 at 21:09:49

ScubaSteve   Offline
MR340 Veteran
St. James, MO

Posts: 80
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Hey fellow paddlers,

So I have questions about how a Surfski's hull material impacts it's performance.  I know that carbon and Kevlar are stiffer than fiberglass, but I'm wondering how this translates into the real world.  Does anyone have any real numbers to reflect the advantage to spending the extra $$ on a performance or advantage layup vs the club or sport layup.

If anyone has any info on their average cruising or sprinting speed in the same or similar model ski in different layups please let me know.

I don't think it's worth $500 to save 3lbs in the case or a V10S or $600 to save 1lb on a Stellar SR, so I'm looking for some input on whether or not the performance difference makes up the difference in cost.

Thanks in advance.
Steve
 
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Reply #1 - 10/25/15 at 13:15:54

gersus   Offline
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St James, MO

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Lots of components are involved in why various layups are better or worse. Weight, stiffness, durability are the big ones. A lightweight, stiff layup helps acceleration more than anything IMO and its easier to load Wink
Durability is also a huge component. I've heard that epics new GT layup (carbon, 22lbs) is tougher than the red tip layup which is heavier.
In the end, it just depends on what it's worth to you and how deep your pockets are. A lighter layup is nice and faster but is it really worth it? Maybe.
Thats why you see so many black tip epics around, the best compromise for most people.
 

Gerry
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Reply #2 - 10/26/15 at 18:33:00

slebos   Offline
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I get way into this thing.. most people really don't give it a ton of credit but I do.. 

here is an awesome article this should help a ton..

http://www.lcrk.org.au/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.WeightEffect

 
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Reply #3 - 10/26/15 at 18:40:16

slebos   Offline
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1 kg is about 2.2 lbs  and 1/6 speed is .16666 mph..   

 
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Reply #4 - 10/26/15 at 19:44:55

Manitou Paddler   Offline
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I have paddled freakishly light boats (22 lbs huki ski) and heavier (performance epic 34 + lbs) and a lighter boat is more lively and has instant acceleration which can mean twitchy but also good at sprints to catch a wake, etc....but after all these boats (trust me...I am an addict)....I am completely convinced that for any distance over 30 miles.....where a fast Cruze is critical....a boat that is comfortable, does not need to be babied in the shallows or debris and will let you relax and keep a good smooth form....is faster than any boat that is "theoretically" faster

The issue is that sweet spot is different for many paddlers....Herbert can take a nap in a 17 inch ski and others a v8 is a challenging boat ......for me the v10 sport is that perfect distance boat

As for layup....a light boat is awesome for car topping and short intense race....but for distance, I will opt for some durability....the epic advantage is that for me.

Bryan
 

river is as river does
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Reply #5 - 10/26/15 at 22:14:38

slebos   Offline
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i'm sorry not .1666 mph it's kilometers.. so .1666 kmh..


so this simple version,  if a train has 50 cars to pull it's slower then pulling 30 cars.. if putting out the same effort ..
 
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Reply #6 - 10/26/15 at 22:26:19

slebos   Offline
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so in the HD5K I do every wed,  if I had a boat that was 2.5lbs lighter I would be 3 seconds faster. which is about a boat length.  so 5lbs would be 6 seconds.  so buy a nice boat but most of all   getting in shape and losing a few pound will make you faster and you will be able to put out more effort.. double win for getting in shape...
 
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Reply #7 - 10/26/15 at 23:40:17

ScubaSteve   Offline
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St. James, MO

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Thanks for the link, though I must admit I haven't plugged in my numbers yet...so I'll use yours for now.

I am the lucky winner of the S18S that was for sale, so I'm going to shave about 15lbs from my V7 (let it be known that I haven't weighed either boat, I'm using the specs on their websites) I'll do my regular ~5k tomorrow and hope to finish at least 18 seconds faster.  Maybe even a little faster due to the stiffer hull and additional foot in length.

I'll try to post results tomorrow.

Bryan, the aim of my original question was to choose a V10S in club or performance layup, but I ran into a sweet deal  Smiley thanks for the info. If you ever want to get rid of the giraffe let me know.

Steve
 
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Reply #8 - 10/27/15 at 10:56:56

Manitou Paddler   Offline
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Just to put the boat weight thing in perspective ....a large camelback or two is dam near 10 lbs and once the paddler is I n the boat ....all that mass moves as one....i.e. I weigh 220 lbs....so as a percentage of total moving mass....the boat ain't much of a factor....certainly not worth tweeking over 5-8 lbs of layup

Bryan
 

river is as river does
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Reply #9 - 10/27/15 at 11:09:15

ScubaSteve   Offline
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St. James, MO

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Bryan, do you think there is a performance difference between the club layup V10S and the performance layup V10S? 

Thanks,
Steve
 
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Reply #10 - 10/27/15 at 16:04:53

Manitou Paddler   Offline
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No....but for sure the club is more fragile

Both are stiff boats and on The water ...a paddler would be hard pressed to tell the difference

You could swing a hammer at the performance and damage it some....but the same hammer blow would punch right thru the club hull....I have put hatches in both layups and this gives you a bit of hull to hold and mess with and the durability of the performance is way,  way better

For rivers....I would go with the performance

But if I found one used....I would still paddle a club....but would be ready for a less hit worthy ride
 

river is as river does
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Reply #11 - 10/27/15 at 19:57:28

Ladsurfski   Offline
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The number one selling layup for Epic is the Performance...a great combination of lighter weight and increased durability.

As an Epic surfski owner from 2005-2010 and since being Epic dealer, I have had Club, Performance and Ultra layups in my personal and demo fleets. In 2005-2008 it was a Performance V10, from 2008-2010 it was a Club V10 Sport and in 2012 we had our first Ultra in the demo fleet.

I will agree with Hopkins and Slebos that the lighter boats (Ultra, Elite, GT layups) are faster out of the gate in a sprint, and that over the long haul (in Ultra races at cruising speeds) the additional weight of a Club or even a Performance layup doesn't have a major disadvantage. Eric Sutter finished 3rd male soloist in this years MR340...he was paddling a V8 Club (18' x 22" @ 39lbs). Definitely not the lightest boat out there.

The Club layup has advantages specifically with price point. In all of the Club boats that I have had, specifically the V10 Sport from 2008-2010 (which I put through a lot including hitting objects head on), I only had minor gel coat cracks that were easily repairable. I even had the (unfortunate) opportunity of watching Rob Raucci's Club V8 get airborne in a 35+mph gust and crash land on a concrete sidewalk, then bounce onto the curb and then into the gravel parking lot...three hard hits! Amazingly, the only damage was severe gel coat cracks, chipping and peeling. There were not any soft spots and the fiberglass with polyester resin was not compromised. The boat was never repaired and has since had two new owners, still not repaired, and has not taken on water.

I currently have two brand new Club boats...a V10 Sport and a V10...both sale priced at $2,000 with pickup in KC (Retail is $2,395 + $350 shipping).


 
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Reply #12 - 10/27/15 at 20:20:37

slebos   Offline
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  What I like about all this is people are talking about this..

The sport has grown so much that people care and talk about this.. 

  10 years ago this sport was almost dead around the midwest and now look at it...

  How many epics were sold 10 years ago in this area??  How many this year Ron?  plus all the other boats and all the used boats that have come here too..

  got to love it..

who else has some input on this??  love to read some more info,articles, personal input and see some more data...
 
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Reply #13 - 10/27/15 at 20:29:40

Ladsurfski   Offline
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I agree Ryan. We have seen phenomenal growth in flatwater paddling here in the Midwest over the past decade.

In 2004, I purchased my first surfski (Fenn Mako Millenium) and then replaced it in 2005 with the first surfski from Epic...the flagship V10. It is amazing to see that there is a surfski for practically everyone out there and for all of the levels of stability!
 
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Reply #14 - 10/28/15 at 00:42:06

ScubaSteve   Offline
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St. James, MO

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I'll never forget when my friend Jason came to work wearing a Gritty Fitty t-shirt.  He and his brother went up to Kansas City and raced their 36" wide 15.5' long Pelican canoe 50 miles.  At the time I thought it was neat, but I was not really interested.  In 2012, my wife and I purchased a 16' "performance touring" canoe.  We also owned a Pelican canoe, and after feeling our new boat's gains in speed and glide, that 50 mile race sounded like a neat challenge.  We couldn't make the date, so I started looking for other races in the area.  While searching the internet, I ran across this crazy race called the MR340, and it quickly made it's way to the top of the bucket list. 

Switching gears here.

I did my first 5K in an S18S today and the results weren't exactly what I expected.  I was looking to shave at least 6 seconds per mile over my V7, but the actual result was only about 2 seconds faster.  I'm going to try again on Thursday, as the weather was less than ideal today.

I ran into Ron in August at the Race for the Rivers and he mentioned how much of an advantage the narrow catch on the V7 was compared to similar boats.  He said that after paddling an Epic ski I would be banging the hull in another.

He was right  Roll Eyes
 

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Reply #15 - 10/28/15 at 00:55:06

ScubaSteve   Offline
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St. James, MO

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And here is why.

This is across my foot brace/rudder pedals.  I am 6'2"

I'm sure the measurement isn't perfect, but it's about 11" across at the highest point before the cutaways, and about 17.25" at it's widest point.
 

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Reply #16 - 10/28/15 at 01:07:37

ScubaSteve   Offline
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St. James, MO

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And here is the S18S across the foot brace.

It is about 15" across at the highest point, and about 19" at it's widest point. 

I'm sure I'll adjust my technique, but notice that the scuffs where I banged my paddle are right at 17.5".  It would have cleared the V7.
 

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Reply #17 - 10/28/15 at 08:19:33

Jaybee   Offline
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Knoxville, TN

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I've added a 12" x 2-1/4" layer of this clear liner to the "strike area" on my S18S:

http://www.pepboys.com/product/details/1142099/00148

I just didn't like seeing the scuffs on the gel coat.

It's hard to avoid banging the boat when you switch from one size hull to another.  I took my winter project hull out last weekend to work on trim and balance for the build.  It's 1-1/2" wider than the S18S and I was banging the crap out of it for the first half hour or so.

At one of the paddling clinics I went to, taught by Chris Hipgrave, he said that when they teach kids they tape a short streamer to the hull just in front of the catch point.  They want to hear then hitting the hull as they practice so they tell them to try to hit the streamer.  This puts them in the right place for a good catch.  All I could think about was that the practice boats they use must look beat to death.
 

Jim
Boat # 3489
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Reply #18 - 08/21/19 at 22:38:20

Hannibal_Cannibal   Offline
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Kansas City, MO

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I know this thread is WAY old... but when I was considering upgrading from a V7 I came across the thread and used it as a datapoint about whether or not I should upgrade.

So I just went from a V7 to a first generation S18S in advantage layup.  Similar beam (21 vs 21.25), 18 vs 17 length.  38 vs 55 measured weight.  My first 5k in the S18S shaved off 1:15 from my PR time in the V7.  YMMV, but thought I'd post it for anyone scouring the forums trying to decide if they need another boat.  Do it  Smiley  And keep the V7 - it's awesome to have a fairly speedy boat that's utterly bombproof.
 
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