Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
rivermiles.com kcpaddler.comepic kayaks and paddles SUPStLouisMissouri American WaterMissouri River Relief Lewis and Clark Boathouse and Nature Center St. James Winery Olathe Ford Lincoln Mercuryprojectathena.orgmr340 shirtDents Unlimited2013 Stickers
Home Help Search Login Register
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Missouri Point Series (Read 5741 times)
Reply #20 - 04/30/12 at 20:05:52

FlyinLow   Offline
2X MR340 Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
"Life is Entered Upon
with Courage"- A de T

Posts: 161
**
 
I know I'm new to this sport so take my comments for what they are worth.  The point system does seem like a nice way to reward those who compete in most of the races and do well.  However, I think it should be done informally (you can still keep track of points and award prizes). 

It gets scary when you start throwing around words like "governing body" and "elected officials"  Shocked

The amazing thing right now is that anyone can create their own race and it can be successful (as was evident last weekend) without belonging to an organization.

my $.02

ES
 

"Don't think you're on the right road just because it’s a well-beaten path."  ~Author Unknown
IP Logged
 
Reply #21 - 05/01/12 at 20:01:37

Manitou Paddler   Offline
5X MR340 Veteran
2X MR340 Safety Boat Pilot
4X Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran
Gritty Fitty Record Holder

Posts: 2544
*****
 
Perhaps some boat classes are appropriate...tandem versus solo..........I was perhaps thinking that one should not fall off the point series for solo for example just cause you paddled tandem in one of the series races......but would be good to recognize those tandem teams that without fail race together...such as pappy and son or soggy bottom boys

Think it over.....whoever is willing to track all this needs to like the system...and it can always be modified down the road

And Charlie...you are a lovable retro grouch to be sure......but bro come to the dark side...buy a tandem unlimited ...you will be 1 mph faster, more sea worthy on river... And if in an outrigger  will become a warm loving man who hugs everyone he meets  Wink;)....while flashing a hang 10 hand signal and sporting a flowered shirt and flip flops..... Smiley

The reason surfski and outrigger's are the trend for us is they have been able to evolve due to no boat constraints in their race scene......so they have evolved and are the fastest thing out there....but I truly believe that both boats now stand to be tweaked further for flat water and river conditions (ala evil scientist's Matt Green and Ryan Slebos...both who are cooking up new designs)......mandated boat specs simply stops all that evolution........viva la unlimited Cheesy Cool

Bryan  Tongue
Bryan
 

river is as river does
IP Logged
 
Reply #22 - 05/01/12 at 21:41:24

Green Wave paddler   Offline
4X MR340 Veteran
MR340 Record Holder
Gritty Fitty Veteran
I don't know Karate but
I do know crazy!
Grain Valley

Posts: 470
****
 
Joe what do you think? I see many of Bryans points, however Charlie and others have points also. Personally, this is what goes through my mind when racing, "bring the fastest possible thing you can paddle for that distance and lay it all out there". I can't help it if somebody wants to paddle a "turtle". I mean no disrespect to anyone by saying that, but they have the ability to buy whatever they want, the same as me or the next guy. I mean we are not at the Olympics.  The type of boat is a strategy, just like the line you choose on the river or the food you put in your body. Some things work for some people.
The number of motors (people) in a boat is different. I have only paddled for 2 years so I am also new and I don't want to make any enemy's by running off at the mouth, but to each their own. 
We should just do it informally this year and see how the interest is. If a person has an issue with the way it's done, they can start their own point system with all the category's they want.
MD
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #23 - 05/01/12 at 23:11:50

awaller   Offline
3X MR340 Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran

Posts: 268
***
 
I think because of the sheer number of variables we're dealing with here(division, sex, splitting points for tandems, etc), this thing could become very complicated (which frankly, would take all of the fun out of it).  The simpler the better I say.

I would pitch the points system more like a game of golf.  Lowest score wins.  Award points based on finishing order per class (However far we choose to break them down); 1st=1 point  2nd=2 points  10th=10 points and so on.  For tandems (mixed or otherwise) the point(s) would go to each member individually, so each member of a 1st place tandem would get 1 point. That way no one would lose out by switching between classes, they carry their points with them regardless.

Then at the end of the series whoever has the lowest score wins.

Because of it's simplicity, however, I think there might be a high likelihood of a tie, so I might add to that, one little layer of complexity; we could add a fractional "distance multiplier" to each race.  So the longer the race, the more the multiplier shrinks your score. 

Example:  Say I finish 3rd in a 50 mile race (yah, that'll happen) with a Distance multiplier of ".7".  I would earn 3 x .7 = 2.1 points 

Then say I finish the 340 (distance multiplier of .2) in 3rd place.  I would earn 3 x .2 = .6 points

This would actually still be pretty easy to track with a basic spreadsheet.

Thoughts?

-Aaron

 
IP Logged
 
Reply #24 - 05/02/12 at 06:31:49

Walt Birmingham   Offline
3X MR340 Veteran
3X MR340 Safety Boat Pilot
Forum Moderator
Chamois, MO

Posts: 607
***
 
So you compete against say 75 people in a 50 mile race and get 2.1 points. Then you compete against 500 people in a 340 miler and get .7 points? I may not be skating on the right side of the ice, but this just seems a little convoluted to me.
 

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. (Mark Twain)       http://greatrivertimes.blogspot.com
IP Logged
 
Reply #25 - 05/02/12 at 09:09:27

Manitou Paddler   Offline
5X MR340 Veteran
2X MR340 Safety Boat Pilot
4X Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran
Gritty Fitty Record Holder

Posts: 2544
*****
 
Man...I am begining to regret ever bringing this up....such an inocent suggestion has created such division (or no divisions, depending on how you want to do a point series Cheesy)....fact is...we dont need this.  It was an add on.  We all know each other and it has been a kick to see the community grow.  See racers evolve to become forces to recon with....see teams develop that are inspirational and just look at the last race.  A parking lot full of high end, very fast boats of all kinds.  Amazing how we have grown. 

At this point, the point series is causing more negative than positive (or was is decreasing points for first boats in?).........I will replace my original suggestion with a retraction. 

It's all about fun, its all about rivers and its all about a boating community that to date has been super supportive and not cut throat at all...with room for all....plastic or carbon, USCA or unlimited.....its all good. Smiley

if it floats.....I like it Cool

Bryan
 

river is as river does
IP Logged
 
Reply #26 - 05/02/12 at 10:31:39

awaller   Offline
3X MR340 Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran

Posts: 268
***
 
I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but it seems like the whole point of this thread was to come up with a way to recognize peoples accomplishments over the course of an entire season. 

I think it would be really cool to have a way to see who has done what throughout the season, and to have it all in one place.  To recognize those who consistently win races, as well as those who are just simply always there.  And I think it would bring an already phenomenal paddling community even closer together. 

Maybe we are coming at this from the wrong angle though.  What if instead of tracking points and turning it into a competition, we simply start tracking stats for every racer who wants to be included?  What races they've done, what division, what place, total miles, AVG speed etc.

Of course we can still list top overall stats like, most 1st place finishes, most miles paddled etc.

If we use a shared google spreadsheet or database, then anyone (or certain people) could update it from anywhere.  And anyone could view it or even link to it from any website.

No convoluted calculations, just information.



 
IP Logged
 
Reply #27 - 05/02/12 at 14:48:09

Scott Mansker   Offline
Race Staff
9X Safety Boat Pilot

Posts: 7569
*********
 
I think the confusion was on the golf score aspect.  I misread it that way myself. 

This thread came up a few years ago.  It made it all the way to the spreadsheet stage and gave points for the Gutbuster.  I can't remember what the formula was, though I think it had something to do with how many people you beat.  So, if you entered a race and division with 4 people and got 1st, you got 3 points plus whatever the formula was for distance.  Enter a longer race and beat 30 people, get a bunch more points.  But it was also set up so that someone who didn't necessarily place high, but did a bunch of races, would still be ranked fairly well by virtue of participating and finishing.

The only way to fine tune something like this is to just do it.  The need for tweaking will become apparent very quickly.  But if nobody ever does it, the theoretical tweaking will bog it down.

Multiple systems can be used.  The best one will eventually stick.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #28 - 05/02/12 at 15:21:04

Walt Birmingham   Offline
3X MR340 Veteran
3X MR340 Safety Boat Pilot
Forum Moderator
Chamois, MO

Posts: 607
***
 
Please don't construe my questions as criticism. I do not wish to shoot holes in anyone's sugestions. I'm just trying to understand what is being recommended and why folks are thinking what they are.
I think a points series could be both fun and entertaining but I am at as big a loss as anyone as to how it would work.
Sorry if I sounded negative, in reality I am just a bit mixed up.





 

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. (Mark Twain)       http://greatrivertimes.blogspot.com
IP Logged
 
Reply #29 - 05/02/12 at 18:19:19

Manitou Paddler   Offline
5X MR340 Veteran
2X MR340 Safety Boat Pilot
4X Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran
Gritty Fitty Record Holder

Posts: 2544
*****
 
Walt...your good, I know you were not digging

My concern is this seems to be leaving some folks out..And it was I see now, slanted by my suggestion towards long distance and the front runners

A point series could have a completely different objective...based on simply participating and finishing a race, etc

As for the system I suggested...trust me it was not to serve my needs...I can't do either kawnivore or 340....so I am dead on points there already....and Herbert is coming up for race to the dome....so we know how that is gonna go  Smiley

SmileyBryan
 

river is as river does
IP Logged
 
Reply #30 - 05/02/12 at 18:59:21

CW   Offline
2X MR340 Veteran
2X Kawlloween Veteran
2X Kawnivore Veteran
Gritty Fitty Veteran
Olathe, KS

Posts: 72
**
 
I think if you are going to add a "factor" it should based on the boat type / hull speed, and the time the race was completed in.  This way you can include all types of paddlers regardless the type of boat.  Scott mentioned the number of boats in each class and that is probably fair for races with categories like the TWS, perch creek, etc, however probably not so much for the 340 and rivermiles races as you have a plastic canoe in the same class as an unlimited.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #31 - 05/02/12 at 23:23:42

Dark Horse Paddler   Offline
7X MR340 Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
4X Gritty Fitty Veteran
2X Kawnivore Veteran
MR340 Record Holder
Gritty Fitty Record Holder
Lee's Summit Missouri

Posts: 1346
*******
 
I am willing to keep a data file and keep it posted. (yes I live in Denmark, but you guys are my family, I love the Missouri paddling group, and I'm already 1 year done into a 3 year contract so I'll be back soon).  My goal will be to keep it transparent, simple, and most importantly, FUN!

Here are some questions that I'd like feedback on. I will compile the feedback and then announce results of said feedback.

Do you want the focus to be on class performance or overall performance? 

Depending on which you chose, would you like the performance of the one you DIDN'T choose to have a small factor?

Would you like there to be a factor to include the number of people that you compete against?

Would you like there to be a factor for distance?

Would you like to see people earn points simply for participating/competing (not only winning)?

Would you like to see a factor for boat class?

Please respond to DarkHorsePaddleSports@gmail.com


My goal in doing this would be to recognize not only those who performances consistantly over the season, but also those to participated consistantly. I love stats, so I will really enjoy finding some neat data. I used to be a sports editor in another life, and I could do a monthly "article" describing the standings similar to a mock ESPN update.

Joe

 

-Joe Mann, Dark Horse Paddler
www.MidwestPaddleRacing.com
Your #1 Site for Canoe and Kayak Racing In the Midwest!!
IP Logged
 
Reply #32 - 05/03/12 at 08:40:44

yankeeclipper   Offline
MR340 Veteran
4X Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
2X Ground Crew Veteran
Katy 50 Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran

Posts: 1219
*
 
Your first question to ask is do you want to be inclusive or exclusive? If you want to be inclusive and promote paddling then you have to have basic classes including the canoe and rec kayak (18' and under) Then you need to have races of various distances that offer those classes. Answer the first question and if inclusive I'll give you the framework for a point series as I see it.
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #33 - 05/03/12 at 22:54:20

awaller   Offline
3X MR340 Veteran
Kawlloween Veteran
Gritty Fitty Veteran
Kawnivore Veteran

Posts: 268
***
 
Forgive me, but once I get started on something like this, the only way I can get it out of my head is to just go nutz with it until either a.) it blows up in my face or b.) I end up with something worthwhile.

I sort of already started on a Spreadsheet to start tracking Stats for some of the races. Keep in mind, this isn't really a points system.  It's just takes the data (placement, finish time, distance, etc.) from each race, totals them up for the entire season, and then compares them to everyone else's totals. So far I'm thinking since people frequently "float" between different classes throught the year, it would be best to just track individuals. Tandems can just enter the same info for both individuals.  But I am working on some ways to also include some divisional Stats as well. That gets a little more complicated though.

If and when we work out a Points System of some kind, it shouldn't be too hard to integrate an extra page for points ranking.

Right now, (for testing) anyone can enter their own data (even from most smartphones). Just go to the "Races" page, add your name, Division, Placement and total time for any applicable races.

Once entered, If you go to the "Paddler Stats" page you should see your name with all of your totals for the season plus an overall ranking for each stat.

Let me know what you think:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvTG2V_Vo5LedHpXdkNXVGdoYzNFODUwU1F...

-Aaron
 
IP Logged
 
Reply #34 - 05/05/12 at 17:01:09
Jeff Needham   Ex Member

 
This looks great.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print